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Topic: Hitler's reasoning..  (Read 5571 times)
StGeorge
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« on: November 03, 2006, 10:05:39 PM »

In spite of everything; Hitler especially (meaning more than the Japanese) did, he tended at least through most of the war maintained the standard rules of engagement...he also made a fairly decent attempt to follow the standards set forth by the Geneva Convention... in his own twisted mind he considered the Poles not as POWs, but as traders by ignoring the edicts set forth in Versailles after WWI stating that the Poles were rebels and German citizens, as with the Jews as non-conformists and invaders hence, the genocide via slave-labor, guinea pigs and/or just killing them outright (I know that this was more complicated than stated…but for here...)...for the most part the Allied military POWs were treated OK, as long as they were healthy and could work….or were fairly visible to the rest of the world…to me; in total war he or his leadership wouldn’t care…and he did have a few individuals that didn't, but not as a whole....he did however begin training his youth corps toward that end...just didn't make it...

And after reading many pieces through the years, and speaking to many relatives that were there at many levels and in different armies (beside the US, exiled-Polish, British, exiled-French)…his military leadership considered themselves as professional soldiers…I believe that most of them would have left him earlier-on if these rules of engagement and other standards of war weren’t followed…they took pride in winning by playing by the rules…and as being the “master race” they should be able to….

The Japanese on the other hand only followed them when it suited them…they are a barbaric people by western standards (although they think the same of us) they believe in total war…and have for centuries…it was their lack of innovation and pure modern technology that kept them from doing it…don’t think for a second if they had the atomic bomb first that they wouldn’t have used it…I think that the Germans would have held back until they were totally desparate...

The Japanese believed at the time in a monocultural society, remember they remained in isolation for almost 300yrs....the Germans wanted a "master race" culture enslaving the rest so that they can constatntly show that they were...

Anyway that’s my take on it…
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2006, 10:06:35 PM »

I haven't heard an argument in favor of Hitler's "pedanthood" before reading your article, but perhaps you know something I dont. I do feel that you are ascribing meaningless paperwork on which all sorts of laws, orders and rules were set (And which Hitler used at times to excuse himself or to make himself look polished). However, I do know that you do not know the following facts about WWII:

Despite your preference for the Germans (certainly to be expected from a Westerner) over the Japanese, it would do you good to consider the fact that some of these wonderfully law-abiding WWII Germans practiced a policy of luring whole populations of Jews (located in German-occupied smaller European nations) into specially unmarked grimly colored windowless vans for a "Trip" to a "Detention center" - when in fact all that this type of vehicle represented was a mobile gas-chamber - because the carbon monoxide from the vehicle's exhaust was rigged to allow for the gases from the exhaust to be re-routed (when a switch was pulled) into the rear cabin where the Jews (old/young men, women, children) were sitting huddled together. Unbeknownst to these Jews - the death-ride or "Trip" (as they were told) would end near a dumping ground where the lifeless bodies of the CO-choked Jews would be dumped (but not before they were stripped-down naked and their personal possessions made available to the Germans (usually the Volksdeutscher civilians or "Germans of the Near-abroad" minority) who would be picking or sifting through the piles of Jewish shoes, clothes, jewelry and other possession to pick out what they want).

However, I do agree with you in principle, that the German Verhrmacht preserved its honor, largely, although it was badly tarnished on occasions when it was pushed by the SS (usually through a personal order from the Reichsfuehrer-SS) to participate or help-out in the liquidations of Slav peasants, Jews or Franco-Italian latins (to the chagrin of the noble Verhmacht Prussian officer corps which amounted to such a strong culturally-separate circle of real men that a nation-within-a-nation existed, the one deeply loathful of the top Nazis).

There still lies a stone-memorial to one perhaps hapless but certainly deeply chivalric Verhmacht soldier with the kind of nobility of heart (which gave Germans their high respect in the ages past) that encouraged him to dare disobey a direct order to shoot down the Serbian civilians (in a reprisal campaign for the cowardly Partisan murder of 77 German soldiers in an ambush designed to inflame the situation) in the Autumn of 1941.
This Private Schultz was standing in a firing squad formed by his platoon getting ready to shoot down a line of Serbian peasants standing across in a line alongside a haystack in an open field. However, moments before the firing was to take place, Herr Schultz lowered his rifle. His astonished comrades were stunned (the German soldiers held each other in very high and brotherly esteem in those days) but his officer demanded an explanation. The soldier stated that he did not join the German army to shoot down helpless and innocent civilians, but to fight wars fit for men not murderers!

Then he was ordered to stand alongside those whom he was to shoot moments before. He complied, then calmly combed his hair, raised his chin and looked straight into the muzzles of his kamarades' rifles. This (and the flash) was the last thing he saw before his life departed the surly bounds of blood-soaked Serbian soil. After the war, some remembered the deep nobility of his sacrifice (which must resonate in the Walhalla of honorable man of war) ... and the state erected a modest monument to the man and his high act.
Anyway, after his death the Germans proceeded to finish the reprisal by murdering altogether some 7,700 Serbian civilians (the 'reprisal order' signed by Von Keitel of the OKW and endorsed by the Army Group "E" commander (responsible for the Balkans) von Leehr demanded that for each killed German soldier 100 Serbians be executed)...
....and before this mad vengeance was fulfilled the Verhmacht and their local quisling helpers even marched out a whole High School (some 800 students and their teachers/faculty) during its morning school classes through the town and out into the field where the ENTIRE HIGH SCHOOL WAS MACHINE-GUNNED DOWN in cold blood. The high school principal put on his glasses moments before the firing started and stated "I am holding my class now!"

I haven't heard of an act more vile than the one of this sort committed by any other army in World War Two, however I do know that the Japanese and the American soldiers committed acts of murderous brutality in this war as well.

You are right in ascribing utter inhumanity to the Japanese armies, but they were also motivated by the deep-seated hatred of European-White dominance of Asia, and were determined to become the new non-White masters of Asia (where they had lots of sympathizers even though they were hated by the Chinese most of all). Did not India have an entire army of anti-British, pro-Japanese exiles (some 30,000 strong) who battled the British alongside Japan for the sake of Indian freedom?

Even the "kind" British side annihilated a jewel of European culture - the illustrious Baroque city of Dresden in 1945 where countless IRREPLACEABLE cultural treasures and innocent civilians (German and also captured allied war-prisoners plus some Polish-Russian slave labor from the East) were mass-murdered by the RAF (and its American masters).

I would look at the totality of events of WWII before I would excuse Hitler's crimes on bureaucratic technicalities dating back to the Versailles treaty paperworks. His decision to consider the Jews as legitimate targets of war in an age of TOTAL WAR is certainly rational in an abstract sense (because the Jewish Consensus was an international nation - the only nation of this kind participating in WWII - and thus, the only one that existed as a network above and across all international borders because this Eastern nation of the Arabian stamp could never accept the pathetic limits of mere geographic boundaries as meaningful lines of separation within its own grand and universal body-politic). The European sense of fatherland that is rooted into a certain geographic area is completely alien to the Jewish idea of nationhood.
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 12:14:11 PM »

My friend Seneca, my reply to this is a little late in the day, but I have only just read through this particular set of postings.
 However I must comment on the subject of atrocities: you state on the subject of the school massacre did any army in WW2 commit an act so vile?
unfortunately yes- there were instances much worse. The Red Army's rampage through Germany and western Poland in 1945 saw horrendous massacres, mutilations and mass rapes of civilians on a massive scale - as part of official Soviet policy of retribution. The Soviet propagandist Ilya Ehrensberg exhorted the soldiers of the Red Army to kill and rape the civilian population of Germany.
German and other Axis POW's were routinely massacred by Red Army units.
Anthony Beevor's book 'Berlin' graphically illustrates what the Red Army was capable of and there were numerous instances of Red Army commanders literally turning their troops loose on captured German towns to 'sack' the towns in the medieval fashion - no quarter to the civilian population, including nuns in convents.
The US Army reserved its ill treatment of German POW's for after the surrender in May 1945 - the dreadful conditions in the camps in the Rhine Meadows and along the Rhine were finally documented in the 1980's and 1990's by a Canadian historian in his book 'Other Losses'.
The French Army post-May 1945 took harsh revenge on German POW's. Former French Waffen-SS volunteers were shot out of hand within an hour of surrender.
The treatment of thousands of Wehrmacht Cossack volunteers, their wives and children is equally well documented as the Allies put operation 'Keelhaul' into effect as they were forcibly returned to the USSR. British naval personnel grimly recorded the sound of machine gun fire at the docks in Odessa as shiploads of prisoners were off loaded. The NKVD units wasted no time in wiping out hundreds of pows.
Your reference to massacres in Serbia in WW2 is interesting. The war in the Balkans particularly Yugoslavia was especially brutal and saw many atrocities on all sides.
I personally knew a former Waffen-SS soldier who served out of Belgrade in Brandenberg units and later with Skorzeny's SS Jagdkommando units. He described the war against Tito as the worst part of his war and he had served in Russia and the Ukraine against the partisans. He spoke of Total War there, massacres, villages burned, acts of incredible brutality carried out by all sides, German, Italian, Croation, Slovak and militias, Serbs, Albanians etc. Tito partisans, assorted independent Communist partisan brigades. the civilians suffered and often took part in collaboration with which ever side they supported.
Post April-1945 saw horrendous massacres of German and Axis POW's and pro-Axis civilians by the Red Army and Communist partisans.
Truly the war in the Balkans between 1943 and 1945 was total war.

Volumes could be written here on top of those already written.
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Seneca
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 10:44:46 AM »

One can lose oneself into any sort of sordid detail - but it is unnecessary to do so if one is guided by standards of Morphology of History (sometimes even by a common historical sense).

First of all, I did not intend my question as to who did morally worse than the Germans in World War Two in Yugoslavia to mean that the well-known Asiatic will-to-annihilation must needs be included in the comparison, for the Japanese and the Russians had their share of savage atrocities. However, I know of no documented case in which the Japanese marched the schoolchildren out of their classrooms (with their staff) and shot them in cold blood on the outskirts. I also do not know of an instance of an atrocity in which the civilians (whole families) were lured into unmarked, tinted vans on a last "death ride" to nowhere (for the vehicle exhaust was made to get re-directed into the rear cabin filled with unsuspecting civilians thanks to a rigged switch on the driver's dashboard). Only the Asiatic-Soviet, Russian Jew-led Cheka and NKVD were known for atrocities of this kind, but done to their own people. For Europe this was unheard-of.
This is the way that most of Belgrade's Jews were annihilated in World War Two (their hard-earned wealthy homes made into suites for the occupation forces) and one cannot find a single gas-chamber anywhere in Yugoslavia that will document this gassing of the travelling Jews. Mobile gas-chamber! - that is an innovation worthy of mean and envious parvenus like the top Nazis were! (The bodies of the CO-poisoned Jews were then dumped at the Banjica collection camp where any valuables were stripped-off the bodies and sorted in separate rooms where, later, some of the Volksdeutscher Yugoslavia German minority civilians would come to pick-out what they want and take with them the belongings). It stands to reason that this method of annihilation of the Jews was conducted in other cities of wartime Europe as well.
In some instances, the German occupation forces even allowed placards or signs on some taverns to be posted to read "To Serbs and Dogs The Entrance Is Forbidden." It does not feel good to see in your own country a sign that tells you that you are not welcome in any part of it.

When I cried foul over the Wehrmacht acts in Serbia I meant to say that, by European standards, such actions are unprecedented! Perhaps even by American standards as well, although the past massacres of North American Indians prevent a ready inclusion. Europe was, after all, Europe until the shallow but crushing force of ideology-founded age of radical demagogues swept European culture in the wake of WWI. After 1918, only England maintained a combined front against Asiatic Bolschewism, American Capitalism and European radicalism, but it lost a lot of nerve in the process, and then collapsed from within (the 1932 petition of the Oxford students to the King expressing the desire NOT to serve him was an indication of the trend that will make its full appearance in the 1960s and 1970s). It is clear that WWII by its sheer destructive power delayed many negative trends that would otherwise have taken place sooner rather than later (some of them even as late as the 1990s).

On the other hand, I prefer to remember the Germans as those Austrian-led Kultur-traeggers who, together with the Serbs (in the Freikorps system of granzer-grenadieren) especially under a noble and inspired leadership of one of Europe's greats, Prinz Eugen von Savoya, fought against the Turks, the Croats (who acted as the middlemen in an anti-Austrian plot by arranging a pact between the French of Louis XIV and the Sultan Selim of the Osmanli-Ottoman Empire during the War of Spanish Succession) and the Hungarian vassals of the Turks led by pasha Toekely. Many a glorious military exploit worthy of highest men were made in that turbulent, tragic but also romantic period (1680-1745) on all sides. Men of the Baroque period Europe were truly shaping or shaped by this trend, giving the Baroque period its military the style-stamp. Besides, there were many noble acts of the German soldiers and the German civilians in WWII, even in Yugoslavia. The locals were not ungrateful, even the post-war Communist government allowed ther local Serbian villagers to erect a monument to a fallen German soldier. Wehrmacht sargeant Schultz's action earned him a noble niche in posterity. He refused to shoot at the defenceless, randomly-selected, Serbian peasants lined up against a stack of hay in a village (hostages to be killed as a reprisal for the partisan killing of a few german soldiers) so he was ordered to then stand with them, where he died moments later.

In February and MArch 1933 there occurred a mighty Teutonic spiritual Revolution that ought to have made a positive and long-lasting mark on European (and world) history - instead, it was hijacked (much like the Russian peasant revolution of 1917 was overtaken by the shallow Bolshevik revolution of two cities) by the Nazi electoral/party-political manipulation behind the scenes ensuring that the noble spirit of German revival will serve the sultry and criminal purposes of the sinister but energetic bottom of German life represented by the Nazi bigwigs. The deep lows of the jungle law of the survival of the craftiest became evident in the slaughter of the SA including its chief Roehm. This was no high policy - but media-canonized political brutality.

I have nothing but deep disdain for the top Nazi echelon for I know the depths of depravity their utterly "spiritually anti-German", ideology and practices brought. Our great teacher Dr. Oswald Spengler was among the first tortured victims of the Nazi regime. Before he departed this world, in a deep anguish over the fatal direction his beloved state ship of Germany (under the hijacking by the Nazi pirates) was taking, he made sure, that a significant protest was made by a not-so-great WWI Wilhelmine German leader, Erich Ludendorff, who, under the tutelage of Spengler, would go down in history as the loather of that same little man Hitler next to whom in 1923, in a spirit of desperation over the injustices, both domestic and foreign, done to Germany, he marched in the aborted "Munich Putsch."

Ludendorff stated in 1923, when he was still reeling from the post-war German catastrophe:

"There is but one hope", Ludendorff said to me, "and this hope is embodied in the national groups which desire our recovery." He recommended to me in particular the Overland League and, above all, the National Socialist party of Adolf Hitler. Ludendorff greatly admired Hitler. "He is the only man", he said, "who has any political sense. Go and listen to him one day."

[Fritz Thyssen's 1941 book, I Paid Hitler]

10 years later, the famous Ludendorff telegram to his former World War buddy, von Hindenburg (now Reich praesident), he stated in 1933:

"By appointing Hitler Chancellor of the Reich, you have handed over our sacred German Fatherland to one of the greatest demagogues of all time. I prophesy to you this evil man will plunge our Reich into the abyss and will inflict immeasurable woe on our nation. Future generations will curse you in your grave for this action."

[memories of gauleiter Hans Frank]

All those tea-parties and evening walks, letters exchanged, between Ludendorff and Spengler paid their dividends. He stayed loyal to Spengler and before dying in 1938 he refused any Nazi overtures, even the Feldmarschall medal, by saying "fieldmarshals are born not made!" How aptly said!

I have discovered in my research that Spengler induced Ludendorff to think this way because he was able to explain and provide the historical context of the depths of tragedy that will engulf Germany under the leadership of the misfits.

Spengler in particular found the 1789 French revolution-descended Nazi idea of "volk" counter-productive and ultimately no different than the liberal-Communist-Anglo-Capitalist idea of "people" in the vulgar herd sense, as an agglomeration of physical beings that are herded together to serve a common purpose divorced from any historical or class-based, society-proper, State role, but merely exist as a herd across all times (evidence of contempt for History). He rightly recognized in the spiritually-elect, the Prussians of yore, as the only proper alternative among the White people of the World (he refused to view Germany in a parochial sense) using as an example of what he was talking about the Prussian officer-corps (his lecture-series/book "Preussentum und Sozialismus") in which he placed the highest hopes for the future of Germany - for this element alone possessed the historical experience and therefore the depth of training with which the higher German individuals would be nurtured for the difficult tasks of the future. He admired the way the English silently trained their rising bourgoisie in the 19th century to respect the aristocratic ways and ideals of the Cromwellian age.

Moreover, he was deeply affronted by the loud noise of messianistic, hysterical and herd-instinct-canonizing Nazi ideology, which was breeding, under a cover of cheap German rationalistic-materialistic nationalism using Aryan Social-Darwinism (HS Chamberlain, Alfred Rosenberg - intellectual parvenus par excellence) for a purpose deeply disrespectful of History. In particular, the primitive and vulgar Nazi physical racism, serving at times as a cover for greed and covetous envy, was used to attack those ancient peoples of another time and another intellect, the Jews as if it was their fault that they even exist (declaring them to be parasites merely because their religion, of which Jesus of Nazareth was a member, stood for a borderless religious national identity). Nazis did not even make an important distinction between the conservative Talmudic and Ashkenazi-Liberal Jews! - such was their blind ignorance and petty hatred coming from below. They operate on labels only.
It is even more deeply disturbing to see the Nazis align themselves with the Jewish Zionists even though for a pratical expediency (Zionists were the Jewish immitators of a Western-style ideology similar to Nazism, complete with their own Darwinistic physical racism, and no wonder, for Hitler and Jewish Palestine leader Sam Cohen made a pact in 1933 for the orderly transfer of Jews to Palestine [check the book "The Transfer Agreement" by Edwin Black], and Magda Goebbels herself dated a Jewish-German Zionist she was anthralled by before she fell in with her first husband, and later, a Communist newspaper mouthpiece-turned Nazi, Joseph Goebbels).

Nazi ideology was robbing the German identity of its historical essence. It is sad but so historically accurate to observe all these German multitudes going orgasmic over the little fanatic with his oversized hat tucked hard over his head moving slowly in an open Mercedes (and always shown in public walking stiff with ruffled pants tucked into his boots).

Kaiser Wilhelm II, before he died in 1940 - did say "I am ashamed to be German."

When Spengler withdrew his membership in the Nietzsche Society Club in 1935 (when the whole repertoire and definition of it was changed by the new Nazi party appointees) only a lost soul in the shape of Elisabeth Forster-Nietzsche protested (the great philosopher's old sister). Next year Spengler died in his bed from a heart-attack brought on by a whole lot of stress over the course of events and the ostracism as well as the threat hovering over his head from the Nazi side.

When on July 20th, 1944 the Prussian Officer Corps finally rose in revolt against Nazism, Spengler, if he could see it, would have seen one last hope for Germany. Undoubtedly, the nobility of this long-suppressed but outraged body of the historical German nation could not be contained any longer and it had its 5 minutes of glory in the historical twilight of the German nation and of Europe. Destiny has already decided against Germany, and their success was only hanging on slim chances (like Napoleon's was at Waterloo).

At least, the subsequent slaughter of the Prussian Officer Corps proved that Nazism was as much an enemy of true Germany as it was of anyone else. They chose to exit this world with Honor and not with shame, serving a filthy master unworthy of the German name (the one who had the gall to declare from the heaps of ruins of Europe in his last will in 1945 that he should have applied Russian Bolshevik methods on the upper classes of Germany and France as soon as he was in the position to, thereby unmasking in his own words his true self once and for all).





« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 11:10:38 AM by Seneca » Report to moderator   Logged

"VOLENTEM DVCVNT FATA - NOLENTEM TRAHVNT."
("Willing Individuals Advance On the Wings of Destiny - Unwilling Ones Stagger-on by Destiny's Coattails.")

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God." - Gospel According To John
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